Part 7 - Early Training

John is an extremely experienced member and trainer of Gun Dogs. Hints, tips and general advice can be found in here which will build into an extremely useful souce of informatation

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jo robinson

Post by jo robinson »

Fantastic words of advice John.
I have only had my 3 year old R.S.P.C.A rescue lab for 3 weeks but he is making me such a proud moma :lol:
Not sure how much I am actually teaching him or what he is rem from past training and teaching me lol , either way your info helped me loads in this past 3 weeks .
Cheers
Jo
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Post by John »

Glad to hear it Jo. But remember, if there is anything causing you bother, ask away and we'll do out best to help. There is nothing like a well trained dog, a dog you can take out, relaxed and confident with.

Regards, John
Brassick100

Re: Part 7 - Early Training

Post by Brassick100 »

Hi John,

i hope you dont mind me contacting you but i really need some advise about my 14 month old chocolate labrador girl. we adore her but she really is driving me slightly mad with her behaviour. She is left for approx 3 hours in the morning before which she is walked for about 30-40 minutes, but she always wee's and poo's in the kitchen when left. And at night the same thing even though she will have been in the garden before bed time.

i dont know how to break this very smelly habit? Any advice would be truly welcome.

many thanks

Wendy
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Re: Part 7 - Early Training

Post by John »

Hello Wendy,

These things can have many causes, so a few questions first.

Forgetting for the moment the not being clean during the day, do you mean that she has never really been clean at night, or is this something that has started to reoccur after a period of being clean?

Another question, is she spayed or entire? And if entire, has she had a season yet? And when was it?

Regards, John
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Re: Part 7 - Early Training

Post by John »

Another question has come to mind, is she clean when you are about? Or does she still have the occasional problems?

Regards, John
Brassick100

Re: Part 7 - Early Training

Post by Brassick100 »

Hi John,

thanks for taking the time to answer my plea for help, in answer to your questions:

- Marcy was spayed in August
- she did used to be clean in the night but it was only for a brief period of time, she was originally in a crate as a puppy but always made a mess in the night, which meant she then got it on herself and i had to shower her in the morning. So i moved her out of the crate into a bed in the kitchen and for a little while she only had the odd accident, however now we are lucky if we get one or two dry nights a week. However if i let her sleep upstairs in our room (which we did do following her operation for a couple of nights) she is dry and does not ask to go out either. But i am reluctant to give in to letting her sleep upstairs just to combat this problem.
- when we are in the house with her she never has an accident, she will get our attention and makes a funny grumbling noise so we can let her out, although i also make regular trips to the garden with her throughout the day.
- she will also go in the garden and respond to the command "go hurry" to toilet, this was something we were encouraged to train her to do at a puupy class we attended.

Hope this helps.

Kind Regards

Wendy
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Re: Part 7 - Early Training

Post by John »

Hello again Wendy,

Thanks for answering my questions.

As I said, this is a problem that can have many reasons, hence my questions.

I asked if she was entire, had she had a season yet, because a young bitch coming into season for the first time can have incontinence problems. But as a spayed bitch that one is obviously out.

I asked if she was clean whilst you are around. At that age I would expect her to be, although a very occasional mistake might happen. If she was not reasonably clean at that age I would suspect a medical problem.

I asked if she had been clean, but had suddenly restarted being incontinent. This could be a urinary tract infection.

But none of those things really fit here. Here is a dog who can be clean, is if she sleeps in your bedroom, but not in the kitchen. Why? How do you clear her mess up in the kitchen? If a dog goes in a particular place it starts to become THE place. To deter a dog it’s so important to really neutralise the smell. You can get sprays for this, but dilute biological washing powder will do the job. With a young pup I mix some up in an old pump action hand spray (Mine used to contain a well known bathroom spray cleaner.)

You cant tell a dog off for being dirty some hours earlier, because she wont relate the telling off to the act. But I do “Grumble” when I get up to find a mess. Not at the pup, more at the mess. “Naughty mess, Grrr, Bad mess!” But more important is the praise when she’s clean, “Good Girl, Good clean!” It does not take long for them to start to catch on that I’m cross with the mess. Can you see what I mean about telling the mess off rather than the pup? I’m trying to exaggerate what I fine.

What was she like when you used to crate her? Was she concerned about being crated? Is she concerned when you leave her in the kitchen? I’m wondering Separation Anxiety?

Regards, John
Brassick100

Re: Part 7 - Early Training

Post by Brassick100 »

Hi John,

Marcy hated the crate, it took 4 weeks from when we got her at 8 weeks for her to sleep through without howling the house down, and then when we used to leave her during the day she would destroy everything in the crate (blanket, newspaper etc). i once set a video recorder so that i could see what she did after we left her to see if she destroyed things because of boredom, but she actually destroyed everything within the first 15 minutes of being left and then slept mostly for the remainder of the time. This was when we decided maybe having the freedom of the kitchen would be better for her, and at first it was and she was clean. However she will steal from the worktop if anything is left in reach, but i always move everything out of the way and leave her some toys, a kong and the radio on. in fact the kitchen is the only room i can leave her in because she would chew the furniture in the other rooms if left a while.

When we are home she follows me constantly, from room to room until about 10pm when she finally settles to sleep for about an hour, then she goes out in the garden and then its in to her bed for the night. She doesnt cry or make a noise and she always voluntarily goes to her bed at this time.

I think you are right with the separation anxiety but i really don't know what to do about it and i worry that by being out at work during the day (all be it for only a few hours) its being cruel to her and that we are not giving her what we need. At the weekend and in the evening we rarely leave her alone, there is always someone in the house if at all possible.


Thanks

Wendy
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Re: Part 7 - Early Training

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Nothing you have said surprises me. Let me explain.

The destroying things in the crate is typical anxiety/stress. But as you can see, it’s the stress of you leaving, not the stress of being left. The destruction occurs when you leave. Once she reconciles herself to the fact that you’ve gone then she settles to sleep. Remember this, because it’s very important!

“She steals things from the work top.” No she doesn’t! Stealing is a human frailty, not canine. Dogs don’t see things in the same way we do. Money and cost mean nothing to them. Possessions have a different meaning. “If I want it I take it and it’s mine.” The concept that something might belong to someone else is not a natural concept to them. She sees something on the work top and at first two things go through her mind, “Can I eat it, or can I play with it?” But what happens when she gets it? You come arunning! So very shortly things on the working top have a third use. “I want my mum. I can see something on the work top so if I can get that she’ll come at the run!” I wont say that she is manipulating you, because I don’t think that’s her intention. She wants you back and has noticed in the past that taking things from the work top is a way of achieving that. So yes, it’s all part of the separation anxiety.

So what to do about it? Think about it. She sees you as her support, her crutch. So the answer is to get her standing on her own four paws. We all want to make a fuss of our dogs, we all want our dogs to look to us for leadership. But we don’t want our dogs so dependent that they fall to pieces when we are not there.

Things start from when you get up in the morning. When you get up, don’t take any notice of her! Come downstairs, put the kettle on for a cup of tea, open the door to let her out to do her business, but don’t speak and dont touch. The fact that you have got up is of no interest, everything is very low key. When you get sat down with your cup of tea , then, and not before, can you start to lighten up a little. Well before going out start turning the tap down again to get back to the low key. Dont touch her, don’t speak, just busy yourself getting ready, then shut the kitchen door and go. No “Goodbye love.” No “I wont be long!” Just go. At times during the day shut her in the kitchen as if you are going out and just open the front door, look outside then go back in to her all low key as when you got up first thing. You might shut her in the kitchen when you go to make the beds, all low key as usual. You are showing her that she has not got you 24/7, that you come and go, no big deal. You can probably leave her 4 or 5 times in a day, say 20 to 30 times in a week, you go, you come back, it’s nothing! Get this right and I think so many of your problems will go away.

Regards, John
Brassick100

Re: Part 7 - Early Training

Post by Brassick100 »

Hi John,

thanks i'll give it a try. Can i assume that the making a mess is all connected to the anxiety of being left as well?

Thanks for all your help, i really appreciate it.

I'll let you know how i get on.

thanks

Wendy
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Re: Part 7 - Early Training

Post by Ann Mee »

Thank you John I have read your posts with huge interest as Millie I think suffers a bit from separation anxiety when left; she's not as bad as she used to be though. If i'm not up early at the weekends I do tend to stay in bed a bit longer and she barks almost as if to say 'is no-one getting up?' To be honest she wins in that situation I get up.

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Re: Part 7 - Early Training

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Can i assume that the making a mess is all connected to the anxiety of being left as well?
If she was clean until after she had been left for some time then there could be a doubt. But she’s not, she’s going almost immediately, so yes, I don’t think there is any doubt.
Millie I think suffers a bit from separation anxiety when left; she's not as bad as she used to be though. If i'm not up early at the weekends I do tend to stay in bed a bit longer and she barks almost as if to say 'is no-one getting up?' To be honest she wins in that situation I get up.
I don’t doubt the separation anxiety Ann, but I think there is a good chance the “Wakeup call” is not separation anxiety. That normally results in barking when left, not several hours later. Dogs love routines and I think the lay in is a break in her routine. A “Come on mum, it’s time you were up and getting my breakfast! The day’s passing by!”

Regards, John
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Re: Part 7 - Early Training

Post by Ann Mee »

Thanks John i'm sure you are right, the time she has barked at weekends is about the time she would have her breakfast in the week. I'm feeling guilty now; the last dog I had didn't seem to mind Millie is a totally different kettle of fish. Another lesson learned - thank you :thumbright:

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Re: Part 7 - Early Training

Post by John »

I'm feeling guilty now
Dont feel guilty Ann, dogs fit in to humans not the other way round. (Or so I always kid myself. :( )

John :dontknow:
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Re: Part 7 - Early Training

Post by John »

sometimes so obvious its too obvious
It’s sometimes easier for me to see, because I’m not involved. There’s an old saying my boss used to quote. “When you are up to your backside in Alligators it’s difficult to remember that the object of the exercise was to drain the swamp!”
Last week she began to bark and cry in the afternoon - I know this as my neighbour told me. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . She says it was after the lunch time visitor had been and gone
Is that always the same person? Was it the same person before she started crying? Does someone else come during the day without any problem? Could there be any unusual noises, road works for instance? If you get the chance, can you find out if she is still crying, and still at the same time?

At 6 months old she could very easily be fast approaching her first season, and although many bitches take it very much in their stride others do take it very hard, so changes in nature are not that unusual. My Anna would never take a titbit from your fingers when approaching a season, though she would quite happily accept it if you dropped it on the floor! Amy used to take great pains to tell me how ill she was and how it was likely that she would not see the week out!

Certainly I would start the toilet tissue test. During sleep any discharge tends to collect inside her, so when she gets up after a sleep give it a minute or so for any discharge present to drain down then gently wipe her vulva with a toilet tissue to check. A spot of bloody discharge on the tissue and you will know. Although the vulva swells, many, particularly at the first season, don’t swell until after the season has started, so that’s not a reliable guide.

Regards, John
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