Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

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Jane267
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Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by Jane267 »

Hi John

I wonder if you might give me some advice re Lily. I adopted her 7 months ago from MKF aged two (although she appeared to be younger) and she had been passed from pillar to post since her first owner became pregnant.

Whilst out walking she was absolutely fine for the first 4-5 months, if a bit over enthusiastic on meeting other dogs. She would run up to them at 90 miles and houre and bows and bounces wanting them to play with her. Nowadays she still runs in really fast but usually to one side and then a more gentle sniff before deciding is this is someone who will play with her.

For the last 2-3 months I've had a problem when she is on lead. When walking along a pavement if she sees a dog coming the other way (even on opposite side of road) she starts to pull. Some of the time I can distract her with a treat "what's this" and she will allow the dog to pass, but if the dog coming the other way shows any interest in her, she pulls like mad and will bark and go for the dog. If I don't see the dog coming and it appears from round a corner, then she barks and goes for the dog. Other times we can approach a dog coming the other way and a gentle sniff of hello is all that happens and she is a dream. It seems to be fairly random as to which dogs she goes for, but often it is smaller ones who yap and bark at her.

Off lead she is much better. But even then she still occasionally goes for another dog. Again if I anticpate a problem, I can call her to me and distract with a treat. But I am embarrassed when I didn't anticpate and she goes mental and has to be grabbed and pulled away.

In the middle of June I am going to the Cheshire Show and the idea of walking round the showground with loads of other people and dogs is filling me with dread.

Any advice or help would be much appreciated.

Jane (and Lily)
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Re: Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by LabRes1 »

Im sure John Weller will be along soon to give a proper explanation but in the meantime I had the same problem with my Toby -

Part of the problem was that once this problem had started, everytime i saw another dog i tensed up expecting the usual mad dog episode which of course toby sensed and made his behaviour worse.

Tobys problems were caused by a dog having a go at him which is probably different but the secret to sorting toby was to teach him that approaching dogs were a good thing.

initially, it was about me relaxing and when i saw a dog in the distance very calmly crossing the road with him - no fuss - and giving him some treats. as the dog got closer i would make toby sit and distract him with his favorite tennis ball and some treats - when the dog passed off we went with a big fuss.

it took a while but he is much better now - i still cross the road to be honest but we dont stop and sit any more - he just walks past now and even if the dog barks it doesnt get too much reaction back.

I suppose i should really continue to work on it until he can stay on the same side of the road but he is a stressy dog at the best of times so to me i have a good compromise that keeps him calm
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Re: Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by John »

Hello Jane, a little busy at this moment, but later this evening I'll have time to relax, malt in hand, and give your question the thought it deserves.

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Re: Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by John »

Hello Jane,

I have to say, from what you say I’d be inclined to agree with your title, “Nervous Aggression?”, but let me ask a few questions and see where they lead us.

Can you tell me, has anything changed? Has she been ill at all? Any operation for any reason at all, including spaying? Any changes at home? I know it sounds like I’m prying but any stressful domestic situation? (dogs pick up on these things and it can make a sensitive dog feel rather insecure. So it’s a question I have to ask.)

You say, “It seems to be fairly random as to which dogs she goes for, but often it is smaller ones who yap and bark at her.” So it’s not completely random, these thinks rarely are random. Something triggers her actions and the trick is working out what. Could there be any link to the sex of the other dog? Speed of movement? Noisy dogs? Can I ask, have you ever told her off for running up to other dogs.

If you can have a think about these questions and answer them with as much detail as possible and I'll get back to you.

Regards, John
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Re: Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by Jane267 »

Hi John

She was spayed the week before I collected her. The spay scar became infected and she had to spend 24 hours in animal hospital.

She has had ongoing issues with her anal glands, I took her to the vet every three weeks to have them emptied, but since Easter we have not needed to go.

Otherwise she is a well fit and active dog.

I have had a fairly stressful time work wise since January/February, so maybe she's picked up on that? We were burgled four weeks ago.

For the last few weeks she has been spending a day a week (9.30-6.00pm) at a friends house - in the aim of getting her comfortable to stay there when I have to go away without her - not very often but it does happen ocassionally. SHe appears to love going there - jumps out of car, runs to front door, straight in, gets lots of walks, cuddles and treats, and comes home tired and happy. For the first five weeks she was no problem to them at all. Walked on extending lead like an angel. On week six she went mad and they handed her back to me saying she had gone for an alsatian as soon as she got out of the car, and then every other dog that they had met. Last week, she was back tyo being an angel and they let her off lead with no problems.

Otherwise nothing has changed.

I cannot connect any of these things to the first time she went for another dog - which was at the end of March (6 months after I collected her). I know this to be the case as I have checked my diary - I took her back for one session to the trainer I took her to when I first got her - and of course we went out for a walk and she behaved impeccably! He suggested that it sounded like nervous aggression and suggested the distraction technique. He is happy for me to take her back to him for another session, but I suspect that I will pay him money and she will behave perfectly! So I'm really looking for some more cost-effective (free) advice!

The first few times she did it was when she was on lead and so I thought that was the trigger, but now doesn't appear to be the case. I hadn't thought about the sex of the dog, so maybe I'll try and keep a watch on that one. It does appear to come and go, almost like maybe a grumpy hormonal teenager - do they remove ovaries when they are spayed or just uterus?
Thinking of the most recent cases that she has done it:-
A staffie off lead in the woods whom she approached fairly slowly, and it responded by putting down a stick and doing the normal sniffing to greet. When it picked up the stick she also tried to pick it up and it started growling so she went for it. Yes I know that was about possession of a stick and 50/50 but still quite scary when she had to be dragged away.
Two miniature poodles. All three on leads. The poodle barked nervously as she started to approach to sniff and Lily went mad and had to be pulled back and walk away.
A small white ?? Took her by suprise and we left our driveway - appeared from behind the wall and was suddenly in her path. Pulled back and then because I know the owner was allowed to gently say hello and all was fine.
Another staffie on lead on fairly narrow pavement. We had met before with no problem. But on this ocassion she simply went straight for it.
A smallish sheepdog-ish type of dog - again on lead, again we had met before with no problem.
Several other incidences in the woods with bigger dogs, but usually she then puts her hackles up and when called comes running to me in fear.

In the early days, she would run up to other dogs with great enthusiasm wanting to play. I don't recall having told her off. It used to be great fun watching her desperately wanting to play and the joy when she found another dog that responded and would play chase. If the dog didn't want to play, I would simply walk on and call her to me and give her a treat when she got to me. So No, I don't recall having told her off for running up to other dogs in the early stages.

In terms of speed of movement. When on lead, she begins to pull as soon as she sees the other dog - which usually gives me time to put distraction technique into place. When off lead, I have noticed, which may mean there is no pattern or that I just haven't seen it.

She definitely reacts to noisy dogs. Her ears prick up whenever another dog barks - even if we can't see it. But I've not been conscvious of these being the dogs she goes for.

The first time she went for another dog was a complete surprise. I was totally at a loss as to what had cause this "out of character" behaviour. I saw the dog-trainer withing two weeks of this incident.

With repeated occurrences, I have become more stressed and yes I have screamed "Lily" in fear as I have had to go in to get hold of her and pull her away from the situation. Maybe I should just call her to me and reward her, but I don't think she would come, she becomes so focussed on the other dog, and I have to say fear overwhelms me and rational thought goes out of the window and then I become cross and grumpy with her for the next part of our walk.

If I anticipate a problem, I now call her to me and have a treat in my hand and she walks past the other dog, watching, but more interetsted in getting the treat which is right in front of her nose, but still firmly held in my hand until we are past.

The big issues now are when I don't anticpate it. What causes it in the first place and can I ever stop it completely, or will I (and anyone else who walks her) always need to be one step ahead of her?) Will it be possible to take her to a big event (like the Cheshire Show) were there are inevitably going to be lots of other people and dogs that we've never encountered before?

I hope that I have answered all of your questions! Thank You for taking the time to help us out.

Jane
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Re: Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by Jane267 »

Just another couple of quick thoughts.

Lily has always been a nervous dog. When I first adopted her she wouldn't go out into the garden unless I went with her. If I appeared from a direction she wasn't expecting she would "jump" (with fear). She would frequently come looking for me and want to be where I was. I assumed this was all connected to separation anxiety as she had been passed from pillar to post before I adopted her and when she was left alone howled the place down and chewed anything she could get hold of.

She is now a much calmer dog and will go out alone, will happily be in another room to me (especially if ther's a ptach of sun to sit in) and can be left safely in the kitchen for 3-4 hours with no damage done.
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Re: Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by John »

Thanks for your replies Jane. Unfortunately I've been a little tied up this evening and although I've started a reply I've not finished it yet, (midnight!) so I'll finish and post it tomorrow.

So sorry for the delay, John
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Re: Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by Jane267 »

Hi John

We had a classic example this morning.

Within minutes of leaving home we met the two miniature poodles. All three dogs on lead and walking at normal pace towards each other. Because of what had happened the other week when we met them, I got a treat out for Lily and said "What's this" she focussed on it and we kept walking with her still focussed on the treat. However when we got level she suddenly pulled and barked. I said "No" and kept walking and put the treat back in my pocket. SHe continued to walk with me looking for the treat - which she didn't get.

As we entered the woods, she was off lead and we were approached by a rottweiler cross which was on lead, so I again got a treat out and got Lily focussed on it. This time she walked past perfectly and was rewarded with the treat.

We met 10 other dogs (all off lead) whilst in the woods in groups of anything from a single to five at once. No issues at all with any of them.
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Re: Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by maxie »

I wouldn't presume to know a fraction of what John knows, but from experience with one of my dogs it occurs to me that when Lily is on the lead she might feel as if her space is being invaded (because she can't get away if she wants to). My Maxie was like this & she was fine off the lead. What starts it off I've no idea, but we were lucky as we hardly ever needed to walk her on a road so she could be off her lead most of the time.

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Re: Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by Lins »

There is an old saying regarding leads...................It's a case of flight or fight.

I can have the same problem with Molly, on or off the lead. It's a case of learning how far to let your dog go. I know Molly detests rats on ropes and collies so, I always call her in rather than take a chance.

I am waiting John's words of wisdom with interest. I hope learn something too.
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Re: Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by John »

Hello again Jane,
I have had a fairly stressful time work wise since January/February, so maybe she's picked up on that? We were burgled four weeks ago.
Dogs are so quick at picking up on our moods and worries. When my late father was suffer from Alzheimer's it really blew poor Lucy's mind. She was really flaky. At the times when he went into respite care she soon settled, but when he returned home she was always so pleased to see him, but within minutes would realise nothing had changed and would leave the room, refusing to come back in until he went to bed. Stress takes dogs in different ways. Some retire into their shells, some literally get so worried that they will lash out at anything.
The first few times she did it was when she was on lead and so I thought that was the trigger, but now doesn't appear to be the case. I hadn't thought about the sex of the dog, so maybe I'll try and keep a watch on that one.
The lead could have been the initial trigger, but once started it can progress.
I hadn't thought about the sex of the dog, so maybe I'll try and keep a watch on that one.


With a bitch, I would expect the biggest problems to be with another bitch. But I'd not rule out bitch to dog aggression. It's not as clear cut as it tends to be with dogs, who rarely attack a bitch!
It does appear to come and go, almost like maybe a grumpy hormonal teenager - do they remove ovaries when they are spayed or just uterus?
It's interesting you say that, there are differing techniques used these days when neutering a bitch. In the old days a vet would remove everything, but these days sometimes a vet just removes the ovaries because it's less invasive. This is perfectly satisfactory because a bitch is born with all the ovaries she will ever posses, no new ovaries develop later so once they are removed the bitch is sterile. But with both techniques sometimes little pieces of tissue are left and a bitch can get hormonal at times when she would otherwise be coming into season. So unusual, but not impossible.
Thinking of the most recent cases that she has done it:-
A staffie off lead in the woods whom she approached fairly slowly, and it responded by putting down a stick and doing the normal sniffing to greet. When it picked up the stick she also tried to pick it up and it started growling so she went for it. Yes I know that was about possession of a stick and 50/50 but still quite scary when she had to be dragged away.
Two miniature poodles. All three on leads. The poodle barked nervously as she started to approach to sniff and Lily went mad and had to be pulled back and walk away.
A small white ?? Took her by suprise and we left our driveway - appeared from behind the wall and was suddenly in her path. Pulled back and then because I know the owner was allowed to gently say hello and all was fine.
Another staffie on lead on fairly narrow pavement. We had met before with no problem. But on this ocassion she simply went straight for it.
A smallish sheepdog-ish type of dog - again on lead, again we had met before with no problem.
Several other incidences in the woods with bigger dogs, but usually she then puts her hackles up and when called comes running to me in fear.


So it appears from that she's prepared to have a go at what she sees as within her capabilities, but is aware of her limitations! This is again born out by what you said in your latest post. This is a useful piece of information and tends to bare out the "Nervous Agression" theory.
Within minutes of leaving home we met the two miniature poodles. All three dogs on lead and walking at normal pace towards each other. Because of what had happened the other week when we met them, I got a treat out for Lily and said "What's this" she focussed on it and we kept walking with her still focussed on the treat. However when we got level she suddenly pulled and barked. I said "No" and kept walking and put the treat back in my pocket. SHe continued to walk with me looking for the treat - which she didn't get.

As we entered the woods, she was off lead and we were approached by a rottweiler cross which was on lead, so I again got a treat out and got Lily focussed on it. This time she walked past perfectly and was rewarded with the treat.

In the early days, she would run up to other dogs with great enthusiasm wanting to play. I don't recall having told her off. It used to be great fun watching her desperately wanting to play and the joy when she found another dog that responded and would play chase. If the dog didn't want to play, I would simply walk on and call her to me and give her a treat when she got to me. So No, I don't recall having told her off for running up to other dogs in the early stages.
I imagine you can guess my thinking when I asked that question, but it does happen so often. Dog runs up to another, owner calls it back sounding worried/scared, dog thinks there is something to be scared about and decides to get the first bite in!

So, lets look at what you can do. Ian mentioned tensing up, and that is so important for a couple of reasons. Firstly it tells your dog that you believe there is something to worry about, but secondly it also tells your dog that you believe you are not in control of the situation. It is important that you present a calm, confident appearance, showing you are in control of the situation.

Distraction techniques are good, but you need to be very careful that you are rewarding the right thing. And it's so easy to get it wrong. Take this scenario. Your dog rushes up to another. It's owner grabs it and being small lifts it up out of the way, You call Lily, who returns to you so you reward her for returning. But what does she think? "Wow, I did the right thing there by chasing that other dog off, mum was so pleased she rewarded me with a treat!" Can you see what I mean? It's so easy for us to read something totally different to the dog!
With repeated occurrences, I have become more stressed and yes I have screamed "Lily" in fear as I have had to go in to get hold of her and pull her away from the situation. Maybe I should just call her to me and reward her, but I don't think she would come, she becomes so focussed on the other dog, and I have to say fear overwhelms me and rational thought goes out of the window and then I become cross and grumpy with her for the next part of our walk.
I can quite understand this reaction on your part, but can Lily? It's so easy for her to think, "Mum's frightened to, so I was right to get the first bite in! As to calling her away and rewarding her, Would she relate the reward to coming away, or would she still be thinking of going in and relate the reward to that?

So you can see how easy it is to inadvertently make a situation worse. Dogs don’t tend to think around corners, so what seems perfectly logical to us, particularly when combined with a language we understand, can mean something totally different to a dog when the words we are saying are little more than sounds to her. Take as an example "I have screamed "Lily" in fear." At that point Lily would have been between you and the other dog. In other words, you screamed in fear at the other dog! Can you see how that could have been misinterpreted? To get yourself between the two dogs, facing Lily and with your back to the other dog, and using a commanding (even angry) voice would have left her with no doubt who was getting the rollocking! Particularly if she is on the lead you can pull her back so you can turn across in front of her in order to be facing her as you tell her in good old "Anglo Saxon" exactly what you think of her!! It's important that you leave her in no doubt that it is her who you blame! Immediately this has the desired effect lighten up. Dont nag! You are aiming at maximum difference in tone between right and wrong. I would not treat at that point at all. As to treats, If you tell her to leave as you approach a dog, and she's good, then treat as soon as you are past. I'd make sure she knows I have the treat, but she must earn it, and she must learn to recognise the fact that it has to be earned.

Which brings me nicely to another technique which is so useful in these cases. It's called NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free.) Basically this is exactly what it is. Everything has a cost and everything has to be paid for. This does not necessarily mean the dog must do something for a titbit,(although it can) rather there are all sorts of ways it can earn a reward. Sit quietly whilst food is put in the bowl and placed on the floor, the reward is the food. Sit quietly to have the lead put on, the reward is going for a walk. Sit quietly whilst the lead is removed, and possibly do a short bit of off lead heelwork, the reward is some off lead running. All this is aimed at making compliance with your instructions seem worthwhile until it becomes second nature. Have a read of this http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

Joan mentioned leads and how these can cause apprehension, as Lins says, if it's flight or fight, if the lead is preventing flight then fight is the only alternative. But this not only applies to leads. Anything which places an obstruction to flight has the same effect. It could, for example, be us ordering our dog to sit whilst another dog sniffs around it. The nervous dog is not a lot different to the nervous person. What it wants is someone it believes it can rely on. Someone who can protect it. Someone who can make everything right. The very thing I've been talking about all the way through this post. Quiet calm handler presenting a confident appearance and expecting immediate obedience. Again this is an area where NILIF can help. You are aiming at being the most important thing in your dog's life.

Regards, John
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Re: Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by Jane267 »

Thanks John.

I'll give it a try.

Jane
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Re: Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by JM »

Oh - I'm glad I noticed this post... It sounds just like Max! He's improved so much since we got him in January - and when we're in the woods, off-lead, he's super - comes when he's called (except he's just discovered muddy puddles!), says hello to dogs nicely and then comes with us... Lovely! However, when we're out and about with him on the lead, he's unpredictable when we meet dogs... Sometimes he'll be OK, but. other times (well most times), he'll lunge and snarl at the dogs. (Sometimes he'll start off sniffing to say hello, then snap!). I don't know if it's any sort or sex of dog - same size or smaller I think. It makes our local road walks round the lanes a bit fraught!

At dog training he's mainly OK - he has lunged at a Dalmatian and collie, but is OK with others.

I think it is fear based rather than nastiness, and does seem to be lead based. It wonder if it's to do with me on the other end of the lead - he is very attached to me and follows me everywhere when I move (working on that!!).

We're going on holiday to the Lakes in May - but at the moment I think it won't be as relaxed a time as it used to be with Danny, our old boy!!

Anyway - now I've seen this post, I'll carry out John's suggestions!

Jill
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Re: Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by Yvonne Walsh »

I read this with interest as we have witnessed some similar behaviour from Molly. She tends to rush up to other dogs off lead at 90mph and leap on them. Depending on the other dogs reaction it either leads to fun chase play or can turn a bit snappy. This seemed to be happening more frequently. We have just started training classes last week and are aiming for a calmer and more appropriate way of meeting other dogs! I think that I had begun to anticipate a problem and so read Johns comments about how that might come across to Molly, with interest. On a lead we are now starting to get her to sit and let the other dog pass by, this seems to work quite well.
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Re: Nervous Aggression? Barking at other dogs

Post by John »

These things can sometimes take on a life of their own. For one reason or another something happens. Next time we are understandable a little worried, our dog picks up on this so he/she is a little apprehensive and so it snowballs.

Then comes the situation where our own dog is on the receiving end. How we deal with it can affect our dog in a big way. Natural reaction is to sweep our dog up in our arms and comfort it. But our dog does not see it as comfort! To our dog we are worried, and if humans, as big as we are feels worried then our dog certainly feels that something serious has happened! Instead of making our dog feel better we have actually succeeded in making it feel even more apprehensive! My approach in the instant that it kicks off, regardless of who starts it, is a very sharp, "Oie! Pack it in you two!" And as we walk away from the other dog, "That will learn you to keep your out of other dog's business next time!" No sympathy and laugh it off. Try to give the impression that you wont tolerate it, but that it's no big thing.

I know it's not easy, but try to think like a dog, he does not understand words, just actions and tone of voice.

Regards, John
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